Another piece of the legacy of the Tommy Thompson “government
by suspension of ratiocination” era bobbed up to the surface,
according to news reports. A re-interpretation of a state
constitutional amendment pasted-in during the Thompson years
asserts that it’s now okay to carry a handgun in the open “as
long as you’re not doing anything wrong.”
A spokesman from Nuts Running Amuck (NRA, but no relation to
the other NRA, of course) explained to me, off the record, that
anyone packing heat would, of course, unbuckle and drop his
gun-belt before “doing anything wrong”, because that would be
the right and legal thing to do. And, of course, anyone asserting
his alleged Second Amendment rights always has legal behavior
first and foremost in mind, of course.
When I suggested that everyone packing pistols would make
communities look like Dodge City of the Wild West, my NRA
spokesman said, “Of course. That’s the point. If everyone is
armed, no one is harmed. Think about it. If the passengers on
those 9-11 airliners had been armed, they would have taken
out those hijackers who only had box-cutters anyway.”
“But,” I butted, “wouldn’t it be dangerous to have all those firearms
around, loose, where kids could get their hands on them?”
“Dangerous? Hell, no! You’re not thinking, man! Don’t you read the
papers? Don’t you know all those cases recently, where some
nut father kills his wife and kids, the whole family? There have
been, like 60 people killed by nuts with guns so far this year. I’m
telling you, if those kids had been properly armed with handguns,
they could have off’ed their old man as soon as he started acting
bonkers, and all those families would be alive today!”
Well, he’s got a point. I guess I just never thought about it that
way.
—-
@ Jerry. Again your spewing nonsense. Individual personal stories don’t count? Well Jerry what counts then? Here is a simplified explination on how things work. They happen, there are others that may have been there to give proof and then a story is told and is true because, guess why Jerry? It is TRUE! The approach you are taking here is like someone taking you outside in the middle of the day to show you it’s light out but you still keep spouting off about how it’s dark and just because the light is right there in front of your face your still not buying it. Give us a break! You have been shown enough information and in response you just rebut it with no valid reason to discredit it. Jerry regardless of how many times you and I or you and anyone else go back and forth playing this tail chasing game your not going to change the fact that some of us can handle the responsibility of gun ownership and usage, even if they do scare you and you can not handle one. Lucky for you if your ever in trouble there now may be a man standing next to you who’s testicles have dropped and he will have the ability to defend you and yours.
I have also started a petiton to have all leathal feet turned in for disposal. I do not want Jerry to freak out on the street if he mistakes me for someone that wronged him, and use his leathal feet to kick me thus accidentally causing my firearm to discharge.
Some useless info for Jerry.
Omaha Mall Shooter Stopped by Armed Shoppers
by Scott Ott for ScrappleFace · Comments (51) · ShareThis · Print This Story Print This Story
(2007-12-07) — When 19-year-old Robert Hawkins entered the Westroads Mall in Omaha, Nebraska, carrying an AK-47 assault rifle wrapped in a sweater, he intended to become famous by shooting as many people as possible and then turning the gun on himself.
The mentally-troubled teen left a suicide note, and a trail of evidence on his computer and elsewhere that he knew the police would spend months investigating. He had done everything possible to ensure that his name would be mentioned along with other mass killers at Virginia Tech, Columbine High School and the like.
He knew that the Westroads Mall was a gun-free zone, with signs on the entrances warning people with conceal-carry permits that they may not bring their firearms into the mall. He took comfort from those signs, as he pushed through the doors carrying the stolen assault rifle.
As he ascended to the upper deck, Mr. Hawkins could almost hear the screams of the shoppers as they tried to flee the sound of his shots, but due to the echo couldn’t discern the shooter’s position. He pictured the confused mall security guards talking over each other on the two-way radios. He rehearsed in his mind the final trigger pull that would end his mortal pain, and imagined the silence that would follow, punctuated only by the groaning of his dying victims.
That was the plan — careful, premeditated and nearly perfect.
There was only one problem: some people don’t read signs, and others ignore them.
As Mr. Hawkins moved into the ideal sniper position on the upper deck, an unnamed middle-aged man emerging from the nearby Von Maur department store noticed his odd behavior and glimpsed the muzzle of the rifle peeking out from the sweater. Almost instinctively the man moved toward Mr. Hawkins, reaching to his belt to draw out a Springfield EMP, a small, 9mm semi-automatic handgun.
As the would-be famous mass killer raised the rifle to his shoulder, the unnamed shopper commanded him to stop. Mr. Hawkins turned the muzzle of the AK-47 toward the commanding voice, a single shot rang out and Mr. Hawkins staggered, dropped his weapon and fell against the railing.
By this time, two other shoppers were aiming their pistols at Mr. Hawkins — a young, single woman pulled a .40 caliber Glock 27 from her purse, and a retired farmer drew his 9mm Ruger SR9 (an early Christmas gift from his wife). Together with the first man they moved in to separate Mr. Hawkins from his gun, search him for other weapons and restrain him until law enforcement arrived.
Robert Hawkins is recovering from his gunshot wound as he awaits trial for attempted murder and other charges. He faces the prospect of 15-to-25 years in prison, where police say he will be famous as “the guy who was almost famous.”
Westroads Mall officials said they had not decided yet whether to press charges against the three who interrupted Mr. Hawkins’ plan by violating the mall’s gun-free zone policy.
@Really, the approach I’m taking (as you call it) is that you need facts and statistics when setting policy. Anecdotal evidence, personal stories, and fantasy fears are an idiot’s delight, not a basis for public policy. Make an assertion, back it up with solid research, and you’re ready for rational discussion.
@ Jerry. Everything given to you is fact. Just because you do not like what it proves does not discredit the fact that it happened. There are links to statistics by state. There are links to storys of people defending themselves and others because they are able to arm themselves. No one has the right to tell another human being that they have to sit in fear while wait for the police to show up, that is if they can get to a phone. I would also add Jerry that the statistics from each and every state with concealed carry is what has been used for over 10 years to bring this right back to individuals state by state. Lucky for the rest of us the ignorance of those that ignore those facts and statistics was not used because it has no impact on the reality. So when your ready to use the solid research of the many that have either lived it or taken the time to gather the facts you should then and only then feel free to reintroduce yourself in to this conversation.
Your “data” collection is unconvincing. I see no reason to support, or even permit, concealed carry.
Heyugh! Karate Chop! Wasn’t there a song like that? Everybody was kung fu fightin! Hugh! Those kicks were fast as lightnin! Hugh! It was a little bit frightnin! Hugh! jerry spin kicks with expert timin! Hugh!
All these examples and facts dont mean nothing, but that leftist rag with obviously predudiced reporters are spot on? All of these examples I opened are from newpapers and news clips, as well as articles from real sources of news, and not some UFO chasing crap posted online from outside the fence of area 51 by beatnicks and conspiracy nuts.
Believe what you want. Concealed carry is the law and you’ll just have to learn to live with it. These very arguments were made in the legislature and guess what, the real facts rose to the top and the other crap sank to the bottom where it belongs.
Well Jerry no one has to convince you of anything now do we? The people that have reaped the rewards of concealed carry in other states are not concerned with what people like you think, they are just happy to be alive as a result of having the right to defend themselves. Concealed carry is here.
“… just happy to be alive as a result of having the right to defend themselves.”?! They got you, hook, line, and cartidge, don’t they?
Jerry, I’m being serious here. First weekend in April the semi annual Gun & Knife show will be at the hockey building. Cost is $5 to get in. The parking lot will be packed all 3 days as it always is. Stop in, walk around and I’m sure you be be surprised at the number of folks from all walks of life buying, selling, and trading guns. Guns are an American heritage. Being able to carry and/or conceal & carry doesn’t turn people
into lawless zombies / Dirty Harry Callahan’s walking around looking for trouble.
Just this week a gun toting bank robber held up a bank in Wausau. I’ll bet a dollar to a donut there was a sign on the front door stating NO GUNS ALLOWED like most places now have, since concealed carry was legalized. When a gun toting robber points a loaded gun at a law abiding citizen minding their own business, people should have the right to defend themselves and their loved ones vs being a statistic.
Ben, when someone’s pointing a gun at you, just how does your concealed carry gun save you! Are you going yo fish a gun out of your shoulder holster before the guy’s bullet reaches you?
Jerry I will take that hook line and sinker as you call it. I bet the people in the Omaha mall that are not pushing daisys today would buy that hook line and sinker too. Or maybe its the hook line and sinker you have stuck in your mouth that wont let you face the facts that this has proven its self over and over again since the mid 1980s. No amount of nonsense you come up with will change that.
P’S. I got my permit in the mail today
@Really, congratulations on receiving your permit. You will undoubtedly be allowed to skip training, since you are already a proven know-it-all. Now, get out there and protect your fellow citizens, whether they need it or not!
Jerry I have more firearms traing than the average police officer just out of school. And the best thing about being a so called know it all is I have something you lack. COMMON SENSE and the ability to break down the facts as they are and not continue to ignore the obvious in order to attempt to make my point. I am guessing you voted for Obama as that group showed the greatest lack of common snese ever exibited at the polls.
@Really, you’re wrong again. The “greatest lack of common snese ever exhibited at the polls” was (1) Geo. W. Bush’s re-election, (2) Geo. W. Bush’s first stolen election, and (3) Scott Walker’s election. We’re working to correct those glitches in the development of the American political I.Q.
The greatest lack of common sense is arguing democrat or republican when if anyone were to open their eyes you could clearly see that both sides are 100 percent full of $hit and only bring up stupid positions to keep all the mindless drones arguing amongst themselves while both parties continue in lock step to whatever goal they seem to both be heading towards. So could everyone please remove their head from their foremost point of contact thanks?!
@ Tim. You are 100% correct in your statement. I have felt many times like I am voting for the lesser of the two evils. I also know the the lesser in most cases is the republican party until the tea party gets better roots.
@ Jerry. if you think electing our current president was a step towards correcting the American politcal I.Q you are reading the I.Q scale backwards and upside down, turn the chart over and start from scratch. Of course it does explain quite a bit about your other veiws.
@Tim – right. Damn politicians have saddled us with education, health care, roads, police and fire protection, medical research, and all that stuff for far too long! We should just do away with them, and go back to hunting buffalo for subsistence!
@Really, I would happily match Democratic Presidential IQs against Republican Presidential IQs over the last hundred years! In fact, I’ll spot you twenty points on each one before we even start!
@ Jerry. Politicians have saddled us with nothing for any amount of time, what planet are you living on? All the things you described were created and built by the average man. I am not surprised you would think that a politician took care of it for you though, that is the thought process of the average democrat, someone else will do it for us.
Your offer to match I.Q’s just shows your lack of one.
@Really, thank you for demonstrating my often-voiced claim that there is a severe shortage of appreciation for irony here in the Great North Woods. Among the things built by the common man, you neglected to mention collective bargaining, equal pay for equal work, and women’s rights. It’s safe to say politicians had little to do with any of those.
Awesome, another chance to argue with my favorite liberal, Jerry. Just don’t hurt his feelings or Albus will have to come to his rescue. The argument lefties make about gun laws are predictable and hilarious…they think it’s logical that if guns are made illegal, then they will no longer exist! HaHa…that’s a hoot. Every felon/criminal in the world would put their guns down guaranteed, because now they’re illegal!! (That’s sarcasm Jerry, had to point it out for you because you seem to have trouble identifying it) The streets would be safe!! NOPE. The only people carrying guns would be the criminals…period. They are going to tote guns whether they are legal or not. When I got mugged in Chicago in 1996, by a gun toting thug, guns were illegal to carry in the city limits. Oh my word, how did he have one then?? I thought it was illegal!!
Morons all you must be mistaken, could that crimnal really have had a pistol in a city where they are illegal? I am guessing he was from out of town and just didn’t realize that they had a law banning pistols in the Chicago sity limts. Had you taken the time to explain that to hm he would have turned his gun in to the nearest police officer I am sure
Note that I never said banning concealed carry would cause criminals to stop packing heat . Putting up an argument your opponent never made just so you can act superior by questioning it is called a “straw man” argument, and is a favorite technique for those who have nothing substantial to contribute.
I’m sorry to hear about your Chicago mugging. I’m not sure that would mean you should have to carry arms in Antigo. The only muggings I’ve heard of here are called “chiropractic vertebral adjustments”
Like a typical “I’m smarter than you liberal”, Jerry now has names for any argument that smashes him. I have an argument name as well…it’s called the “liberals are losing the argument so they call people names, change the subject, and try to appear more intelligent by using psychology/sociology anachronisms”. For short we’ll call it the “Jerry”. I’m yet to hear then “you’re a bigot”, or “you’re a racist” argument, because you know that’s coming…that’s called the Jesse Jackson. When you have no grounds to stand on you accuse the other side of being a racist…how can they possibly respond to that?
Do those chiropractic vetebral adjustments help cure cancer? Or prevent liver disease”? Those are my favorite kind!! Haha
@morons all – Yes, I label fallacious arguments for what they are, because false arguments don’t deserve rational response. Descending to schoolyard “Yes you are a poopyhead!” “No I ain’t a poopyhead!” level of discussion does not illuminate the issues. You seem apparently hypersensitive to certain derogatory labels. Have you been accused, perhaps unjustly, in the past? That type of fallacious argument is called a “ad hominem” (“to the man”, personal) attack which, while much in evidence in the GOP presidential primary campaign, is an attempt at complete avoidance of issues at hand.
Again, I’m sorry to hear to you got mugged in Chicago. How would your concealed carry of a “defensive” weapon have helped you in that case? How would it help in Antigo?
@Ben – Still waiting for your description of how concealed carry protects you when someone pulls a gun on you, in regard to your statement, “When a gun toting robber points a loaded gun at a law abiding citizen minding their own business, people should have the right to defend themselves and their loved ones vs being a statistic.”
Jerry you must realize that you are making a fool out of yourself by continuing to ask for proof. You have been given more than enough proof and it goes right by your tunnel vision. Use google and you will find cases where people have protected themselves after having a gun pointed in their face. But the point is that if you don’t have one you don’t have a chance.
I just heard that Jerry is having the airbags removed from his car because even though they save lives in most situations, there are times when they don’t help and have even caused deaths at times.
@Really – Proof? All I’m asking for some convincing reasons getting a permit and gun, myself. Like, how about explaing how it would be useful when I am being held up by one of Antigo’s legion of muggers. Do you just tell the mugger you’re armed, and he better put away his weapon and hightail it out of town before you’re forced to draw your gun and shoot his ass? No one seems willing to explain that process to me.
I just heard that Really figures he doesn’t have to use airbags because he already IS one!
Jerry why should we try to convince you to carry a gun? I really don’t think anyone cares if you do or don’t.
@Meezer – What’s so hard about answering simple questions about your cherished “right” to concealed carry? (1) How do you figure your concealed weapon will protect you when someone has a gun pointed at your head? (2) Just how, exactly, does concealed carry improve our quality of life?
@ Jerry. First of all Jerry you keep tryign to turn this in to a conversation about the level of crime in Antigo. Antigo is a very safe place to live for the most part. A concealed carry permit is not limitted to the boundrys of Antigo however and crime varys as I am sure you must have at least the amount of common sense it takes to realize that.
Also if you remember the unsolved murder at Pickerel lake where a woman was stabbed to death while in her own cottage and taking on her 2 way radio asking for help? I wonder if we would still be looking for her killer had she been able to carry a gun to that knife fight?
And where did you get the idea that because we now have concealed carry that anyone is telling you that you must carry? It is your right to if you wish, no no one is forcing you to do anything. I personally would rather not have you in control of a firearm since they seem to scare you so much. That is a potential disaster waiting to happen. It would be best if you let the boys whoes testicles have dropped carry on your behalf. I mean really your questions have been answered simply over and over again and you just keep chasing your tail around the bush. We all know that if someone is dead set on killing you then they will find a way to do it plain and simple. Not all criminals are hell bent on killing you, they may just want to rape your wife or daughter and since they did not intend on killing them, ( At least until the act is over and they become fearfull of jail time if told on ) you could prevent a lifetime of pain and misery for yourself and your family by being able to defend yourself and your family. There are many cases where people were threatened with a knife and just seeing the handgun prevented the crime. I could go on and on but it is a waste of bytes of data since you will take what you want and look right past the rest.
Also Jerry remember that you can now carry other forms of self defense that you could not have before.
@Really…you must remember a very important thing…Jerry is a liberal. So therefore, he doesn’t think logically. It’s all about emotion with them, and feeling good, and hope and change!! No matter what any of us say, he’s gonna make up some name for an argument that we are making, then use a bunch of multiple syllable words, then cash his disability and/or welfare check, sign the Walker Recall, then vote for Obama…must I go on?
@morons all – “ad hominem” all over again. You feel more confident attacking (without evidence or justification) someone’s intellectual or physical characteristics than you do dealing with the issues. Must you go on? Please do. You win points for my position with every post you make.
@Really – You still haven’t addressed the request for an explanation of just how concealed carry is supposed to protect you since criminal attacks can only be identified as such only when they are committed, which is too late for you to do anything about them. And, since you don’t really know how concealed carry is supposed to improve our quality of life, we can only conclude that the gun-associated testosterone rush is all that attracts you to the conceal carry notion. And this is from someone who accuses me of lacking common sense….
@ Morons all. You made a statement and then Jerry confirms it right after. I guess I should go back and delete all the obvious explinations for Jerry in the previous posts. Incredible!
Jerry, what is your problem with conceal carry. It was passed by a majority of our representives in madison , and then signed into law. you may not want to carry a gun, but you can’t stop other people carrying a gun. And just remember one of these gun carrying people might be around when someone you care about is being attacked. So lighten up francis (jerry)
I have no problem with concealed carry. I know it’s the law, and folks can certainly do whatever they want, regardless of my opinion on the matter. I’m merely helping you concealed carry fans solidify your case. You don’t have to get all hyper just because someone asks you about your motives for an action, do you? If you don’t really know why you’re doing something, why bother doing it? You know how driver permits benefit society, and how driving makes your life better. Why don’t you know how concealed carry benefits society, and how packing heat makes your life better? The “I’m doing it because I want to do it” argument didn’t work for smokers, who lost their “right” to smoke anywhere they want in Wisconsin because they couldn’t come up with a rational justification for their favored activity. That could happen for concealed carry, you know. Some neo-Fascist governor could decide that an armed citizenry makes the implementation of his arbitrary edicts restricting free association and free speech too chancey, and there goes your “right” to pack heat! So, get your motivations clear and operational, and preferably a bit more inspirational than the pursuit of a testosterone rush.
my motivation are the following words “the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed” I get my motivation from the crazy freemason rum running hooligans who founded this country.
one can only bear their arms if they have it on them.
I’d rather have a gun and not need it rather than need it and not have it.
Thats right Big Trucker. I agree 100%.
Jerry the difference between a smoking ban and a concelaed carry ban is that if your sitting next to a smoker you are being forced to breath the potentially dangerous chemicals in the tobaco. If your sitting next to a concealed carry permit holder you will not get lead poisoning unless you ask for it by assualting him/her or their loved ones.
Sitting next to a smoker = No choice
Sitting next to a gun owner = The choice is yours
I was wondering who is the straw man here? I am hoping to be the tin man or even the lion, but not the straw man please.
Jerry I like ad hominems, but only boiled and with some ranch dressing and a big fat steak on the grill.
I also enjoyed seeing you you flip flop a few posts back. Right in the true form of a hard core democrat. Im not for it but now I was just posting this to help you guys that are so it will not be taken away.
Eat more ad hominems because it keeps you pointed in one direction!
@Tim – Having a “right to bear arms” does not incur an obligation to do so. If that were the case, your “motivation” would apply to every man, woman, and child in the USA. I think you may have a more fundamental (hormonal?) motivation for wanting to carry a gun.
@Really – First: Flip-flop? No, you haven’t been paying attention. My point, from the very first (satirical, BTW) posting is that the motivation for carry a gun is questionable. So, I question it. I never said you shouldn’t carry a gun if it’s permitted, or even that you shouldn’t be permitted in the first place. I have only maintained that the urge to carry a gun does not seem to have rational support.
Second: I note by you implied pejorative use of “democrat” that you are speaking from the Republican side of contemporary politics. It’s disingenuous of anyone from the camp of Republicans Newt Gingrich and Mitt Romney to accuse ANYONE of flip-flopping.
Third: You (ineptly) argue a point that is a bit off the mark of the discussion, mistakenly perceive that your opponent has come around to your side, then then dump on said opponent for apparently agreeing with you. This is a completely illogical approach to argumentation. Congratulations – you are now fully qualified to take part in the on-going GOP presidential candidate debates!
You must really think your the ultimate egghead that belongs in a think tank somewhere. You are definitely a liberal who does nothing but doubletalk depending on the the wind at the time of the conversation. If you remember right, you were babbling about those of us who carry guns and you were worried we’d shoot your arse for getting it on with our wife because you may look like the bald headed fat man who she was boinking…. thus, you didn’t want us to carry because you felt unsafe walking the streets.
But… then you came up with your spin kick manuever that was going to take our head off by mistake because you were afraid… Pretty much sums it up?
@Jerry: That motivation used to be common among men. Unfortunately now we have a breed of emasculated half girlie men running around who wouldn’t lift a finger to help you if they were standing right next to the guy while he choked you Jerry. After all what if they got hurt helping you that wouldn’t be any good. We are slowly raising a nation full of cowards in my opinion who won’t stand up for anything or anyone. They are materialistic and extremely self centered. If the world keeps on the pace of moving away from the US dollar as the world reserve currency and start striking agreements to use their own currencies or gold instead of worthless federal reserve paper then you will see how shallow the morals run in these paper men when people will be having a hard time putting food on the table.
Tim said: “We are slowly raising a nation full of cowards in my opinion who won’t stand up for anything or anyone. ”
Stipulated. Now, how does concealed carry correct that situation? Or, is that not the intent of promoting concealed carry?
@Big trucker : I offered a scenario to consider as a possible dis-motivation for concealed carry. Disregarding it does not answer the point. What real-life, justifiable motivation is there for concealed carry? How does it improve the quality of your life, or of the lives of those around you? What, exactly, is the supposed cause-and-effect relationship of moving from (your perceived) bad to (your imagined) good? How about some answers, instead of bar-stool wise-cracking?
Real life justifiable motivation…hmmm…someone with a concealed weapon is on the Virginia Tech campus April 16, 2007. How many people die? March 4, 2005, Sheraton Hotel, Brookfield, WI. 7 dead in a church service shooting. Concealed carry was illegal at that time…would they all be dead if someone in the room had a gun? How about the Norway Massacre…they have some of the strictest gun laws in the world. Could someone on that island with a concealed gun have helped any of the 77 that died?
You want more Jerry?
Jerry, you were given example, upon example above of actual situations were people benifited by having a weapon. If you do not care to read them, then there’s nothing that can be said to make you understand. Point and match.